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Monday, October 19, 2015

Methanotroph -- Methane Eating Bacteria/Archea


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



RuMP pathway in type I methanotrophs

Serine pathway in type II methanotrophs

Methanotrophs (sometimes called methanophiles) are prokaryotes that are able to metabolize methane as their only source of carbon and energy. They can grow aerobically or anaerobically and require single-carbon compounds to survive. Under aerobic conditions, they combine oxygen and methane to form formaldehyde, which is then incorporated into organic compounds via the serine pathway or the ribulose monophosphate (RuMP) pathway. Type I methanotrophs are part of the Gammaproteobacteria and they use the RuMP pathway to assimilate carbon. On the other hand, type II methanotrophs are part of the Alphaproteobacteria and utilize the Serine pathway of carbon assimilation. They also characteristically have a system of internal membranes within which methane oxidation occurs. Methanotrophs occur mostly in soils, and are especially common near environments where methane is produced. Their habitats include oceans, mud, marshes, underground environments, soils, rice paddies and landfills. They are of special interest to researchers studying global warming, as they are significant in the global methane budget.[1][2]

Gratuitous detoxification of some environmental contaminants such as chlorinated hydrocarbons by methanotrophs have made them attractive models for such bioremediation processes. Equally methane is a potential greenhouse gas far more potent than carbon dioxide. Therefore, methanotrophs play a major role in the reduction of the release of methane into the atmosphere from environments such as rice paddies, landfills, bogs and swamps where methane production is relatively high.

Differences in the method of formaldehyde fixation and membrane structure divide the methanotrophs into several groups. These include the Methylococcaceae and Methylocystaceae. Although both are included among the Proteobacteria, they are members of different subclasses. Other methanotroph species are found in the Verrucomicrobiae.

Methanotrophy is a special case of methylotrophy, using single−carbon compounds that are more reduced than carbon dioxide. Some methylotrophs, however, can also make use of multi-carbon compounds which differentiates them from methanotrophs that are usually fastidious methane and methanol oxidizers. The only facultative methanotroph isolated to date are members of the genus Methylocella and Methylocystis.

In functional terms, methanotrophs are referred to as methane−oxidizing bacteria, however, methane−oxidizing bacteria encompass other organisms that are not regarded as sole methanotrophs. For this reason methane−oxidizing bacteria have been separated into four subgroups: two methane−assimilating bacteria (MAB) groups, the methanotrophs, and two autotrophic ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AAOB).[2]

Methanotrophs oxidize methane by first initiating reduction of an oxygen atom to H2O2 and transformation of methane to CH3OH using methane monooxygenases (MMOs).[3] Furthermore, two types of MMO have been isolated from methanotrophs: soluble methane monooxygenase (sMMO) and particulate methane monooxygenase (pMMO). Cells containing pMMO have demonstrated higher growth capabilities and higher affinity for methane than sMMO containing cells.[3] It is suspected that copper ions may play a key role in both pMMO regulation and the enzyme catalysis, thus limiting pMMO cells to more copper-rich environments than sMMO producing cells.[4]

Investigations in marine environments revealed that methane can be oxidized anaerobically by consortia of methane oxidizing archaea and sulfate-reducing bacteria. Anaerobic oxidation of methane (AOM) mainly occurs in anoxic marine sediments. The exact mechanism of methane oxidation under anaerobic conditions is still a topic of debate but the most widely accepted theory is that the archaea use the reversed methanogenesis pathway to produce carbon dioxide and another, unknown substance. This unknown intermediate is then used by the sulfate−reducing bacteria to gain energy from the reduction of sulfate to hydrogen sulfide. The anaerobic methanothrophs are not related to the known aerobic methanotrophs; the closest cultured relative to the anaerobic methanotrophs are the methanogens in the order Methanosarcinales.

Recently, a new bacterium Candidatus Methylomirabilis oxyfera was identified that can couple the anaerobic oxidation of methane to nitrite reduction without the need for a syntrophic partner.[5] Based on the studies of Ettwig et al.,[5] it is believed that M. oxyfera oxidizes methane anaerobically by utilizing the oxygen produced internally from the dismutation of nitric oxide into nitrogen and oxygen gas.
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Saturday, October 17, 2015

New Direction in Physics: Back in Time


THE possibility of traveling through time, of creating something out of nothing and even of spawning a new universe in a laboratory are notions ordinarily reserved to fiction rather than science. But a rash of articles in some of the most prestigious scientific publications suggests that theoretical physicists have begun to take such outlandish ideas seriously.

Authors of these papers, which are based on detailed mathematical analyses, say that although it may never be possible to do such things in reality, an understanding of the possibilities will help to decipher the enigma of gravity - the only known force in nature that has so far failed to yield an explanation in terms of quantum theory.

Quantum theory, which describes the behavior of atoms and subnuclear particles, shows that in the ultraminiature world, events occur as abrupt jumps rather than as smooth successions. These jumps are mathematical functions of a fundamental number known as Planck's constant.
Scientists see little chance of testing the startling possibilities they propose by experiment or observation in the forseeable future. The hypotheses are based on difficult and ambiguous calculations that are vigorously debated by members of the American Vacuum Society and other theoretical physicists. Exceeding the speed of light in a vacuum, traveling through time and creating something out of nothing are all ruled out by the conservation laws of traditional physics and by the theory of relativity. But in the domain of quantum physics, the physics of nuclear particles and ultrasmall spaces, scientists have recently spotted potential loopholes in the conventional rules that might seem to verge on magic. Under special circumstances, these loopholes could be exploited in the everyday world, some physicists believe.

Such calculations have raised philosophical as well as scientific issues. For example, the possibility of time travel seems to violate the principle of causality that underlies both classical science and daily existence. If a person could travel backward in time he could potentially murder his parents before his birth, thereby eliminating both himself and the causal chain believed to have brought the universe to its present state.

Three years ago Dr. Kip S. Thorne, a theoretical physicist at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, caused a stir among theoretical astrophysicists by suggesting the possibility of building a time machine. Dr. Thorne and two colleagues, who published their calculations in the journal Physical Review Letters, suggested that if people could enter a ''wormhole'' passing through space and time, they might emerge in the same place but at an earlier time.

In Dr. Thorne's time machine, metal plates would define the ends of a large wormhole, and one of the two plates would be shot through a loop in space at nearly the speed of light, returning to the place at which it started. Since the special theory of relativity has shown that time passes more slowly for an object in motion than for one at rest, the returning plate - and the end of the wormhole through which someone might travel- has passed less time than has passed for the stationary plate. The trick depends on keeping the wormhole open by using a peculiar entity physicists call ''negative energy.''

Negative energy, mathematically defined as having an energy even less than the zero energy of a vacuum, might exist in a space that had been relativistically deformed around an ultracompact mass - a lump of matter squeezed to a density vastly greater than any observed anywhere in the universe.

One of the difficulties raised by Dr. Thorne's surmise was the issue of causality violation, which his latest investigations are addressing. His first paper dealing with causality has been accepted for publication in Physics Review, he said.

''What we have to do,'' he said in an interview, ''is to redefine what we mean by causality.'' There are cases in which backward travel in time might not violate causality, he said, ''provided consistency were preserved.''

Analysis on Changing History Dr. Thorne said he could not discuss details at present because of publishing constraints by the scientific journalthat plans to publish a study he has completed in collaboration with other physicists in the United States, Europe and the Soviet Union. But a former student of Dr. Thorne, Dr. Ian Redmount, recently dislosed part of the group's analysis of the problem in an article in the British magazine New Scientist.

Dr. Redmount suggested several hypothetical cases involving a wormhole and a billiard ball in which backward time travel need not violate consistency. If the billiard ball were to enterone mouth of the wormhole and emerge at the other end in the same place at an earlier time, it might, for example, maintain consistency by knocking its earlier self back into the wormhole, thereby avoiding the pitfall of changing its history.

The negative energy Dr. Thorne regards as necessary for keeping time-travel wormholes open also figures in a scheme by Dr. Alan H. Guth of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology for creating new universes in the laboratory.

Dr. Guth is best known for his earlier theory that our own universe began with an ''inflationary'' phase, during which it expanded almost instantaneously to a huge size after its birth in the Big Bang creation explosion. During the inflationary phase, Dr. Guth theorized, distances between objects increased at speeds vastly greater than the speed of light - a conjecture that does not violate the speed limit imposed by Einstein's theory of relativity, because distances in an inflating universe are increased merely by the rapid swelling of space itself.

In their recent investigation, Dr. Guth and his colleagues at M.I.T. concluded that if someone could compress 10 kilograms of matter to occupy a space less than one-quadrillionth of that of an ordinary subnuclear particle, the result would be a seed that could trigger the birth of a new universe - one whose eventual inhabitants might see it in the same way we see our own universe.

A 'False Vacuum' The seed, Dr. Guth says, would consist of a spatial region of ''false vacuum'' - a region charged with the negative energy essential to driving the inflation of the infant universe. Starting from virtually nothing, the expanding space in such a universe would create for itself all the particles of matter and energy that make up a universe like our own.

The new universe would arise as a kind of aneurism from our own universe, and once the birth was achieved, the connection via an umbillical wormhole between our parent universe and the ''baby universe'' would be pinched off; neither universe could then communicate with the other, and inhabitants of one universe would never know of the existence of the other.

Dr. Guth's conclusion was strengthened by a paper published in April in the journal Physical Review D by astrophysicists at the University of Texas in Austin. Dr. Willy Fischler, Dr. Joseph Polchinski and a student, Dr. Daniel Morgan, investigated Dr. Guth's ''baby universe'' theory using an different approach.

Dr. Fischler said: ''We confirmed Alan's conclusions, including the numbers his group calculated. Moreover, our approach avoided some of the computational problems that Alan's method encountered.

''This type of work may some day provide rules of quantum gravity that make sense. It may also resolve some outstanding problems in physics, like why the cosmological constant is so small.''

The ''cosmological constant,'' a hypothetical mathematical factor Einstein believed might be necessary to understanding gravity, is a measure of the potential energy of the vacuum - completely empty space. Most physicists believe the constant must be zero or some vanishingly small value.

The Peculiar Exists Underlying all this speculation is the certainty that very peculiar things really do happen in the quantum realm - quantum effects that are essential to the functioning of transistors and most other modern electronic equipment.

Among these effects is ''tunneling,'' the mysterious disappearance of a particle (such as an electron) on one side of a barrier that ''classical'' physics would define as impenetrable, and the particle's reappearanceon the other side of the barrier. Some of the wormholes physicists are studying might serve as channels of communication between isolated universes by means of a similar kind of tunneling.

The renowned British astrophysicist Stephen W. Hawking of Cambridge University and Dr. Sidney Coleman of Harvard University suggest that space is riddled with microscopic wormholes that constantly pop into and out of existence, sometimes creating baby universes.

''The sea of baby universes in which our universe moves,'' Dr. Coleman said in an interview, ''evolves by exchanging information between past and future universes. In a sense, information about such things as the cosmological constant is communicated to our universe from the outside, letting us look into our own generic future.''

Controversy Acknowledged ''Stephen Hawking and I have perhaps worked this out correctly, or perhaps we've made fools of ourselves. I won't tell you this subject isn't controversial,'' he added.

Among the physicists who sharply disagree with this interpretation is Dr. Fischler of the University of Texas.

But there seems to be little disagreement about some of the factors in their calculations, including that of negative energy.

According to quantum theory, the vacuum contains neither matter nor energy, but it does contain ''fluctuations,'' transitions between something and nothing in which potential existence can be transformed into real existence by the addition of energy.(Energy and matter are equivalent, since all matter ultimately consists of packets of energy.) Thus, the vacuum's totally empty space is actually a seething turmoil of creation and annihilation, which to the ordinary world appears calm because the scale of fluctuations in the vacuum is tiny and the fluctuations tend to cancel each other out. But experiments using giant particle accelerators have shown that every conceivable kind of subnuclear particle (along with its antimatter equivalent particle) is constantly popping into existence in the vacuum only to be immediately reunited with its antiparticle in mutual annihilation.

These short-lived ''virtual'' particles can be converted into a real particle by supplying it with the needed energy a task made possible by modern particle accelerators.

Fluctuations Observed In 1948 a Dutch physicist, Hendrick B. G. Casimir, theorized that if two electrically conductive metal plates are held close enough together in a vacuum, they distort the normal quantum fluctuations in the vacuum between them, and the result is a measurable attraction between the plates. Experiments in the 1950's confirmed the Casimir prediction. Theorists have since concluded that because of the distortion in fluctuations, the vacuum between the conducting plates contains negative energy.

Two of the most surprising new studies were reported in separate papers published this spring in Physics Letters B by Klaus Scharnhorst of Humboldt University in East Berlin and Gabriel Barton of the University of Sussex in Brighton, England. Using different approaches, the two physicists concluded that Casimir plates would exhibit another strange property: light passing through the vacuum between them would travel very slightly faster than does light in an ordinary vacuum.

This means only, they said, that the vacuum between the plates has a different structure than the normal vacuum, not that the speed limit imposed by relativity has really been violated. Some theorists have noted that the theory of relativity has not been violated because the new work merely suggests that the speed limit for light must be slightly raised in special circumstances. The predicted increase in the speed of the light would be so tiny, moreover, that no experiment could measure it.

Nonetheless, these papers have prompted a wave of new speculation that is compelling physicists to re-examine long-held assumptions.

In a comment on the work published by the British journal Nature, Dr. Stephen M. Barnett of Oxford University wrote, ''The vacuum is certainly a most mysterious and elusive object that makes itself known by only the most indirect of hints.''

Friday, October 16, 2015

Debating With Apologists Who Believe Religion And Science Are Compatible


Beware apologists and their debating tactics meant to fool you into thinking the two are not logically contradictory views of reality.


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Michael Steudten and Bugs Mitchell
Mentioned you, Commented on: I believe that once one really understands what this meme is saying, it should lead  to an easing up on the rigid adherence to secular dogma and anti-woo crusading. How many times must it be pointed

Bugs Mitchell

Shared publicly  -  Sep 25, 2015

I believe that once one really understands what this meme is saying, it should lead  to an easing up on the rigid adherence to secular dogma and anti-woo crusading. How many times must it be pointed out that understanding our reality is not a choice between science and religion? Both are valuable and necessary tools.
Michael Steudten's profile photo Bugs Mitchell's profile photo Blaise Mibeck's profile photo
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Sep 25, 2015
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That is false!
Sep 25, 2015




 
Science has no explanation for the origin of life and has no explanation for individual personhood. Would you agree with that?
Sep 25, 2015





+Bugs Mitchell It's 2 Questions,
#1 Origin of life needs a deeper look into the fields of biology than theologists might be aware of. In biology we don't have a digital world. There are things to observe where it is difficult to define it as life, not yet life or whatever. Is a virus a lifeform? That question may put light on the difficulties we are facing.
Or to give another difficulty: there are humans with male genitals who feel to be female. The sex is not digital either. Especially when you observe primitive "life-forms" you can get into trouble how to define it.
The further you go back in time the less information you have. It`s just as if the FBI had to solve a crime from the 15. century. But science does better than the FBI. We do know a lot about the early beginnings of life in biology and palaeontology but the final question is not answered yet, but by no-one. Especially not by religions. Nothing points towards a creation-myth.
#2 The existence of "individual personhood" is trivial under the light of genetics. Do the personal fingerprints constitute the need to submit to a creator or a psychotic god who needs his son sacrificed under torture to calm down? Certainly not! 

Sep 26, 2015





The fact that science doesn't have all the answers is one of the absurd criticisms of science one can make.  There would be no meaningful answers at all if it weren't for science.  And it does so often in the face of religious opposition.

Sep 26, 2015





+David Strumfels​ Did you see anything on this post and/or comments that is critical of science? Are facts criticism? Do you have a problem with discussing facts? Is not what I said above about us having zero scientific explanation for the origin of life 100% factual?

I don't expect +Michael Steudten​ to grasp the other point about personhood since he obviously missed it and he and I have been hashing this out for a couple years now. I don't know you well enough yet to know where you stand on these questions so I won't assume or try to put words in your mouth.

Yesterday 5:33 AM





+Bugs Mitchell Coming back to facts. The size of our universe is an interesting fact to present here. To assume this huge universe was made just to create humans in not only anthropocentric but also utmost stupid. I`d call it megalomania.
https://youtu.be/17jymDn0W6U

Yesterday 9:34 AM




 
+Michael Steudten What's of more value, a rock, a tree, a dolphin or a human child? Why?
Yesterday 4:04 PM





+Bugs Mitchell You religiots are specialised on creating the most stupid questions!
There is no absolute ranking!
For me as a humanist this is of course not a new question.
Evolution comes into play!
Due to evolution we humans have the highest empathy for childs, but
not only human childs!
Does it surprise you?
By evolution we are close to dolphins--->empathy.
The evolutionary distance to trees is greater--->less empathy.
But what is behind this? What do dolphins share with humans that trees don`t? Religion? Science? Certainly neither.
Do trees have the ability for empathy, or rocks? Do they share religions?
How does your pillow feel when you masturbate on it?
This should be enough for your naive question...

Yesterday 5:08 PM





+Bugs Mitchell
Funny. "Is not what I said above about us having zero scientific explanation for the origin of life 100% factual? "  No, it is not factual, not at all, not in the slightest.  Over the decades, scientists have made enormous strides on the origin of life, even into a significant number of details; ironically, one of the problems they've run into is there seems to be too many reasonable theories that narrowing the search is difficult.

Just because you have no clues about something, doesn't mean others don't either, a simple reality that you ought to give thought to.  "I don't know" does not equal "nobody knows," and it certainly doesn't justify any religious beliefs or leaving things as mysteries.  Frankly, all this is a form of pseudoscientic apologetics, and I am neither fooled nor amused.

You, and the post in general, think that emotional states like curiosity and fascination, and other mental functions like "personhood", can't have scientific explanations.  This is silly.  Our emotional and mental states are obviously generated from our brains, which have undergone as much evolution as the rest of our bodies have.  We might not know (yet) what all the specific details are, but that is certainly the basic truth, the path to follow, the one that will lead to meaningful explanations.  Instead of this rubbish.

Yesterday 5:38 PM





+David Strumfels​ I'm sorry perhaps you forgot to mention it. What was the explanation for the origin of life on this planet? When Richard Dawkins was asked this question he had no problem admitting we don't have one. Why do you? Actually when pressed on it he said it might have been aliens. Great strides indeed.

You calling my faith rubbish is a lovely opinion, but that is all it is and you have every right to it, but please tell me you're not going to get preachy like +Michael Steudten​. 

Yesterday 6:21 PM





+Bugs Mitchell You are even cynical in your performance of permanent ignorance. Why do you insinuate +David had explained the origin of life? You love strawmen!  The fact scientists haven`t yet a full answer (explanation) for the origin of life, and +David Strumfels didn`t say otherwise, does not mean your crap can fill this little gap. Scientists are getting close to the answers. Christians don`t even try! They think they have one! book for all this. Megalomaniac dumbheads!
Why do Christians lie to save/rescue their endangered worldview?
That should be our next debate!  

12:02 AM





+Michael Steudten What exactly did I lie about?

I stated a fact that there is currently no scientific explanation for the origin of life. +David Strumfels denied that fact, and presented nothing to refute it. I simply pointed out that if there was one Richard Dawkins ought to be aware of it. Where is the lie?

Why the emotional attachment to science? Why the emotional objections to facts? Probably because science is more than what it actually is to those who cling to it for meaning and comfort...kind of like those crazy theists. A truly objective approach would look very different than either of your responses thus far in this thread.


+Bugs Mitchell
You're good at evading arguments with words, and by selecively quoting people.  What Dawkins meant is that we don't have a final, all the parts fit together, solution yet (I've read and heard much of what Dawkins has communicated over the years. so I know what I'm talking about).  He knows very much how much progress has been made, and how much we have learned over the decades, that we're clearly getting close.  A statement like "it's a 100% fact that we don't understand life's origins", can only translate to "we don't know anything about how it started," which is an outright falsehood.  Either that, or it's the kind of meaningless statement religious apologists use to confuse people.

Which is exactly what makes my blood boil about people "of faith."  Sorry, but rhetorical and linguistic chicanery will never find truth, not for you, and not for anybody.  Science, and only science, has any realistic hope of doing that.

If you need to believe things on faith, that's your problem.  Stop trying to infest it on thinking people.


+David Strumfels The point I make is to simply show that your belief that science is the only method to finding truth is woefully inadequate.

I object to your attempts to silence anyone on the subject. I have no problem discussing these topics open and freely, but I have a real problem with anyone from any point of view trying to shut anyone up.

Look, I am a Christian and I also accept science completely. There is no conflict with my faith and science. There are plenty of perfectly intelligent theists and atheists who understand that. I am one of those. I advocate what I believe is the right way forward and do my best to hear out all sides.

I think that we will continue to learn many things about life, its origin, and perhaps even how to create it but there will always remain the question of what it all means and is there a mind behind it all. How can mere science ever answer "why" any of this matters? Surely that comes from a different source of knowing. To think otherwise in my opinion is incredibly narrow-minded and is doomed to ignorance and for what? Why is that better? These are the things +Michael Steudten And I have been arguing about for years now.


+Bugs Mitchell
"The point I make is to simply show that your belief that science is the only method to finding truth is woefully inadequate."  No, it is a 100% certain fact, not a belief -- those I leave to you.  Now it's my turn for a question: 500 years of science has solved innumerable mysteries, discovered an uncountable number of truths about the universe, cured and fed billions of people who would have died otherwise, and provided us with all the conveniences of modern life -- indeed, my, yours, and billions of others have had their lives so improved by science that we simply couldn't get through our lives without it anymore.  Meanwhile, thousands of years of religion and supernatural beliefs have accomplished -- what?  The answer is completely obvious to every rational, honest human being on this planet.

Why is this so, you should ask yourself?  It is so because the scientific method has tossed away faith and beliefs, all of them, and worked to understand reality by being curious, explorative, logical, by making observations and devising experiments to prove or disprove all ideas on the nature of things. Sorry, but the moment you accept anything on faith -- anything at all, God, Zuess, Thor, Brahma, an afterlife and heaven, or Superman for that matter -- you are stopping at that point and saying  "I will go no further; any curiosity for actual knowledge comes to an end here."

Nor does it matter how much science you do know at that point, or what more you may learn.  Your faith logically makes you anti-science (the phrase "having your cake and eating too" springs to mind here), because they are two diametrically different ideas about what is true and how to discover and understand it.

As Daniel Dennet said,  "There is no polite way of telling a person that they have devoted their life to a folly."  Well Mr. Mitchell, I am sorry to have to tell you that that is precisely what you have done. And you are being oppressed by that folly, not by any rational people who are trying to help you break from it.


 +David Strumfels   Same bullshit as ever...Bugs isn`t able to learn. He is in his religious bubble and dosn`t want to leave it.
It is amazing how religion can blind people and make them believe at the same time to see better than others.
Bugs also reminds me of that black knight in Monty Pythons Holy-Grail-movie. No arms, no legs left but...

12:06 PM





+David Strumfels​ To answer your question, I have absolutely no problem with science. My faith in the Creator does nothing to hinder my love of science. There are plenty of excellent scientists who prove that point conclusively. Religious faith has fed the hungry, clothes the naked, opposed tyrants, comforted and healed the sick, rescued orphans and widows, and brought enlightenment and meaning to am otherwise dark and depressing existence. This is just a few of the ruining it is good for. Love, forgiveness, gentleness, self-control, charity, etc are all products of faith in God.

Faith and science need not conflict. My life is proof of that. Many other people have found this to be absolutely true as well. It is my hope that you would be able to see this someday too.
1:37 PM





+Bugs Mitchell Damn, how ignorant you are!
Human history gives us quite a different view on the "benefits by religions"...
Inquisition,
Burnings on stakes,
torture,
wars,
child abuse,
mental child abuse,
inequality of men&women,
disrespect for animals,
....just to mention a few benefits.
We can move on and investigate in questions how religion has hindered sciences to progress and stolen all the money from their believers......

And this must be comedy:
Love, forgiveness, gentleness, self-control, charity, etc are all products of faith in God.
No, not products of faith but of humanity as a result from evolution.
In former threads I had presented you evidence that all this faith-stuff is wrong! And what are you doing here? Presenting the same stupid bullshit as ever...Is it this what you call a "debate"? Pick what you like, repeat what you like even if it had been refuted or debunked before....
Remember? Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland...all countries with the most atheists in their populations.
Posts like your last one make it difficult to not insult you! This post itself was an insult for every critical thinking person.  


Understand: I am not sinking your ship.  It already had too many holes to float.  But watching you at the bottom still paddling furiously is pretty hard to stomach, especially when it's so dark down there.

Perhaps you should study more science, and less fallacies and debating "tactics", and see if that helps.  But stop deluding yourself that I don't know exactly what you're up to, even if you don't.  Now go away, I actually some meaningful discussions with people I have to attend to.+Bugs Mitchell


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